HistnScale Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 (edited) USAAC Interior Colors Lately there seems to be a lot of question about painting USAAC interiors in Zinc Cromate, Interior Green, Dull Dark Green, Bronze Green or what ever. This is an attempt to summarize the available information into one reference without going into extended explanation of how the colors were evolved or specified for use. Hopefully, it works and helps in the future. Please keep in mind that Federal Standard Numbers (FS #) are offered only for reference. The FS system did not come into use until 1956 and there are no direct matches back to the colors used during the war years. Bronze Green # 9: A dark, oily green dating from Nov. 1919. Circa 1938 specified for interiors of enclosed cockpits and seats, passenger compartments. Nearest FS # 14050 / 14058 with BG #9 being a little darker and glossier. Available model paint: Being released by White Ensign Models fall of 2007 until then an RLM 70 going toward the black/green shade can be used. Dull Dark Green: Originally thought to be a variation of BG #9, the actual color card was discovered by Dana Bell in 2000. DDG is a deep, bluish green color. Accepted as a replacement for BG #9 circa 1941 due to complaints about reflections from the gloss BG #9 Nearest FS # 34092 with DDG being somewhat darker and a little bluer. Available model paint: White Ensign Models DDG is a good match out of the can. Model Master European I Dark Green slightly darkened. Poly Scale IJN Green. Interior Green: Interior Green was originally factory mixed by blending Yellow Zinc Cromate with black and a small quantity of aluminum pigment. Many reference authors refer to this color as “Zinc Cromate†rather than the correct “Interior Green or Tinted Zinc Cromate†which probably leads to a lot of the questions. Interior Green or Tinted Zinc Cromate is NOT the same as Yellow or Green Zinc Cromate. Nearest FS # 34151. ANA 611 Interior Green evolved from Tinted Zinc Cromate and became a manufactured color that eventually evolved into the current FS 34151. However, ANA 611 was darker and slightly browner that the current color. Available model paint: Most all manufactures have a version of 34151 in their line up. Color Samples: Please remember that colors viewed will vary depending on the type of monitor and settings being used. This is not the best of scans but should serve to give an idea of the differences in shade and color. Top: Bronze Green #9 Middle: Dull Dark Green as matched and prepared by Dana Bell Bottom: Interior Green showing several of shade variations References: Mr. Dana Bell Historic Archives: Grumman Aviation, North American Aviation, Douglas Aircraft “USAAF Aircraft Markings and Camouflage 1941-1947†by Robert & Victor Archer “IPMS Color Cross-Reference Guide†by David Klaus Edited September 3, 2007 by HistnScale Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Thanks for this cool info. This kind of thread should be pinned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ron Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Thanks for this cool info.This kind of thread should be pinned. I really agree with that comment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Walker Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Absolutely, as this is one of those questions that comes up all the time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bug Bandit II Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Ill agree that this should be pinned. we are always trying to figure out what color to use Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Edgar Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 One thing that it might pay to find out; what was the pot-life of the original primer? Before I retired, I worked on aircraft instruments, and they had to be sprayed with a yellow primer. It has a life of only 8 hours, so has to be renewed every day. If the wartime primer was similar, a 24-hour shift would have seen three lots being mixed, probably by three different painters, then the dye would have been added. The chances of every mix, every day, being identical is a bit thin, I reckon. Since black is not pure black, and has a colour in it, that colour will affect the basic mix; the most predominate colour is, actually, blue-black, so blue + yellow = green. During a fairly uneventful shift, one day, I decided to experiment with the primer, by adding a few drops of black paint. Hey Presto, a very creditable interior green resulted. A few more drops, and I got pretty close to bronze green, and a few more drops came up with olive drab. Now, these are modern materials, so I'm making no claims, but it's worth some consideration, I reckon, and there's another possible thought. If left untouched, for several days, the bright yellow primer turns quite dark; if the wartime primer did the same thing, would that have affected the green, over time? Edgar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 FYI - this goes for many USN interior colors as well. There are some variations, such as Grumman Gray and Salmon Pink, but "interior green" was in use with the USN before it was standardized with the USAAF. Early USN planes, Grumman in particular, used Bronze Green extensively. So these colors are not just for USAAF but many USN aircraft as well. Also a quick note about "zinc chromate" Zinc chromate is a sickening yellow color. various other pigments were often added to it, usually black, making what is commonly referred to as "green zinc chromate." This was not an actual paint. It was just tinted zinc chromate. As such, there were variations in the amount of tinting and therefore the shade of green. Zinc Chromate Tinted Zinc Chromate (Green Zinc Chromate) showing darker and lighter mixes photos from IPMS Stockholm Since almost all interior colors were a mix of other colors and/or pigments, from batch to batch, and certainly from manufacturer to manufacturer there was variation in shades. Due to the practice of using all available supplies of paints before switching to new ones, there was a good bit of mix and match found in different crew areas. As always, your best bet as a modeler is to find a good pic of the plane you are doing to be sure. if no good pics exist, then who can say you are wrong! Thanks for posting, but, as has been the case before, I am sure that confusion and questions will continue. But hey, thats what these forums are for right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HistnScale Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 (edited) ANA 611 Interior Green was standardized and authorized for comercial production in an attempt to eliminate the variations in color and the added labor expense of mixing "tinted zinc cromate" at the factory level. The governmennt issued prepared color tiles which were used to set the base line standard for each color specified in the contract to produce the aircraft. Colors used by the manufacturer were expected to be within a reasonable variation of the government tile. Where we see trade names like Grumman Gray, NAA Cockpit Green, or Bell Green, these were commercially produced colors ( Barry Bros., Dupont, etc.) which were ordered by the factory as a reasonable match to the government sample. The NAA historian had some interesting thoughts about the trouble NAA had in getting the "pine green cockpit color" on the P-51B line to match close enough to the government tile for acceptance. Gee, guys, there was a war on go figure. Cheers, Dave Edited September 5, 2007 by HistnScale Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HistnScale Posted September 3, 2007 Author Share Posted September 3, 2007 John at White Ensign Models has confirmed that WEM will be releasing Bronze Green #9 in their paint line. The original post has been edited to reflect the new information. Cheers, Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 sweet. I have their VVS line of paints and they are fantastic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John @ WEM Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Just a reminder that WEM also has Zinc Chromate Yellow and Zinc Chromate Green available in Colourcoats enamels. Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://WhiteEnsignModels.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Thanks John, and keep up the great work! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wellzy Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Just a reminder that WEM also has Zinc Chromate Yellow and Zinc Chromate Green available in Colourcoats enamels.Cheers, John Snyder White Ensign Models http://WhiteEnsignModels.com Thanks John , As always WEM happy to help . wellzy :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sagindragin Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 hi all, just a quick comment, zinc cromate is like todays etchcoat primer, it is used because it eats into the surface of the metal, if you don't do this then paint will not stick to any form of aluminium, ask anyone in the trade to show you the modern etchcoat and you will see zinc cromate. nice post, that needs pinning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GGoheen Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Great post...let's get this one pinned! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
don f Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 hi all, just a quick comment, zinc cromate is like todays etchcoat primer, it is used because it eats into the surface of the metal, if you don't do this then paint will not stick to any form of aluminium, ask anyone in the trade to show you the modern etchcoat and you will see zinc cromate. nice post, that needs pinning. According to information provided to me by Dana Bell, WWII era (a 1939 formulation) zinc chromate primer was a lacquer paint of typical composition - resinous binders, zinc chromate pigment, asbestine filler and solvents (toluene and butyl alcohol). There is no mention in the formulation for the addition of any etchant. An application of an alcoholic phosphoric acid cleaning solution was authorized as a surface preparation method on aluminum surfaces prior to the application of a protective coating. Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sagindragin Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 hi don, well blow me backwards, you learn something new everyday, so how the hell did they get the paint to bond? the cleaning solution would get the surface clean, but i can't see how it would create a key for the paint to stick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
don f Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) USAAC Interior Colors Dull Dark Green: Originally thought to be a variation of BG #9, the actual color card was discovered by Dana Bell in 2000. DDG is a deep, bluish green color. Accepted as a replacement for BG #9 circa 1941 due to complaints about reflections from the gloss BG #9 Nearest FS # 34092 with DDG being somewhat darker and a little bluer. Available model paint: White Ensign Models DDG is a good match out of the can. Model Master European I Dark Green slightly darkened. Poly Scale IJN Green. There were two versions of Dull Dark Green used on production aircraft. Dana Bell posted these comments to Hyperscale to clarify: Dana Bell Very Nice! Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:48 4.249.108.131 Vincente, It's always risky to identify a paint based on indoor photography published over the internet. That said, it looks to me like you've got a good shot of Dull Dark Green there. There were two color standards for Dull Dark Green - the original Dark Green #30 which looked very much like German black-green, and the ANA version, which was considerably lighter and greener. The ANA version saw the most use, and appears to be the color in your photo. Cheers, Dana Dana Bell Dull Dark Green... Tue Apr 2 12:13:44 2002 I may have caused a bit of confusion along the way, so let me try to set the record straight. The original standard for Dull Dark Green was the camouflage chip for Dark Green #30 - it's very close to the Luftwaffe Black Green, and there's a chip in Bob Archer's book from Monogram. When the Air Corps began creating its permanent camouflage paints in 1940, one of the paint manufacturers (I don't remember which one) submitted a Dark Green #30 lacquer for evaluation. The Army had no use for it, but the Navy recommended substituting the color for Bronze Green #9 in cockpits. The Navy also mentioned that they had come up with a "slight" change in the formula, and would produce chips for the ANA color standards. Both services agreed to adopt Dull Dark Green for cockpits. Although many specifications called for Dull Dark Green #30 for cockpits, what we saw in most color photos, recovered wrecks, and surviving unrestored artifacts usually seemed a good bit lighter. (There were also a few examples of colors that seemed very close to the original #30). A few years ago I found one half of a surviving ANA sample of Dull Dark Green, and it proved to be an excellent match for what we had been seeing in photos and samples. The Navy's "minor" changes were quite dramatic. Only a few hundred chips were produced. They were never included in the 1943 ANA sets, which presented camouflage colors only. Nor were they included in the 1945 standard color ANA set, since Dull Dark Green had fallen out of general use by that time. For the ANA Dull Dark Green, I usually recommend taking Medium Green and adding some black. For the rarer Dark Green #30, add a lot of black. ******************* A few years back, Dana had a professional firm color match the surviving WWII Dull Dark Green card using current commercially available acrylic paints. For a brief time, Dana offered the matched cards to those interested. Dana confrmed to me that the surviving DDG sample was the so-called ANA version and that the matched card was a faithful representation of the original ANA DDG sample. To me, the ANA DDG matched card is a dark, pine green color. Not as dark as RLM 70. I can find no equivalent FS595a or FS595b that is a close match. Based on Dana's comment : "Although many specifications called for Dull Dark Green #30 for cockpits, what we saw in most color photos, recovered wrecks, and surviving unrestored artifacts usually seemed a good bit lighter. (There were also a few examples of colors that seemed very close to the original #30)." There must have been considerable variation in the color of Dull Dark Green produced at the time. Dana has stated that samples of Dark Olive Drab 41 submitted by paint manufacturers for approval were never rejected based on a poor color match to the standard color. They were rejected for for non-compliance with composition, performance, and other requirements, but not color match. Perhaps the same for Dull Dark Green. Don Edited September 22, 2007 by don f Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John @ WEM Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 We've now added Bronze Green 9 to our lineup of US interior colors in our Colourcoats line of enamels. This now gives us Interior Green, Zinc Chromate Green & Zinc Chromate Yellow (matched to WW2 samples), Dull Dark Green (matched to a sample provided by Dana Bell), and Bronze Green 9. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John @ WEM Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 We've now added Bronze Green 9 to our lineup of US interior colors in our Colourcoats line of enamels. This now gives us Interior Green, Zinc Chromate Green & Zinc Chromate Yellow (matched to WW2 samples), Dull Dark Green (matched to a sample provided by Dana Bell), and Bronze Green 9. Well, I THOUGHT I had my signature enabled, but apparently not. The above post pertains to Colourcoats paints available from White Ensign Models. Cheers, John Snyder The Token Yank White Ensign Models http://WhiteEnsignModels.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve N Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 (edited) Hi All, I recently got ahold of a mint condition sample of the elusive Dull Dark Green. A guy on a warbird forum sent me these parts made by Emerson Electric for B-24 gun turrets (the little tank and the handle/pulley gun charger are from ball turrets subcontracted to Emerson.) These had literally not seen the light of day in 60+ years. When the St. Louis plant closed at the end of the war, they threw all the miscellaneous parts into barrels and sold them as scrap. A local junk dealer bought a bunch, and squirreled them away in a warehouse. When he died a couple of years ago, his family found 250 barrels of bits, and assorted other parts that he had apparently never gotten around to recycling. Fortunately, the family contacted a local aviation museum, which took the whole lot. Here are the parts, shot with flash under incandescent light. Color reproduction matches the eye pretty closely. I'll have to shoot a couple more under daylight. Gotta love the original parts tags... Here's (some of) what they found in the warehouse.. And the contents of just one of the drums... SN Edited June 8, 2008 by Steve N Quote Link to post Share on other sites
don f Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 Hello Steve, Wow! What a find! I wonder what else is in those drums? The samples that you photographed appear on my monitor to be very close in color to the color cards that Dana Bell had made - the ANA version of DUll Dark Green. As a comparison here's an image of a B-24 throttle and mixture controls in Bronze Green Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HistnScale Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 (edited) Added for what it may be worth. This is a scan of the Bronze Green #9 paint chip provided in “The Official Monogram U.S. Army Air Service & Air Corps Aircraft Colors Guide Vol. 1†by Robert D. Archer. As noted else where, Bronze Green #9 had an “oily†semi to gloss finish and was replaced by Dull Dark Green due to reflection issues with Bronze Green. Also keep in mind that scanned images may not render the exact color shade and that monitor settings will also shift the color. HTH, Dave Edited April 8, 2008 by HistnScale Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Julien (UK) Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 There is thread on the Classic Aviation forum where a Vultee BT-13A is painted with blue primer? http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....p;#entry1616689 Thought it might be of interest to thise reading this dicussion. I find it facinating that much more of this information is coming to light. Julien Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anj4de Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Gotta love the original parts tags... Hi there When were plastic zipties actually invented? Didn't realize they were around in WWII? cheers Uwe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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