Hughes AH-6C Gunship.

[Loach Driver]

I have a few questions in relation to the Hughes AH-6C gunship fielded by the U.S. Army's TF158 in 1981. It was the first of the AH-series of 'Little Birds' and would see action in Grenada in 1983. The questions are;

1. Was it fitted with the same mini-gun system as was originally fitted to the OH-6A Cayuse in Vietnam? (I think it was the same system but I'm not 100% sure.)

2. How was the rocket pod attached to the airframe on the right-hand side? It looks to be different to the method of attachment for the rocket pod on the AH-6E.

3. What colour were they painted? It looks like they were in a darker shade of Helo Drab and the interior was black, but again I'm not 100% sure.

4. Who did the work to convert the OH-6As into AH-6Cs? Was it Hughes Helicopters or engineers from the U.S. Army or was it a joint endeavour? I think it was probably personnel from TF158 but Hughes might have helped with the conversion as well.

There are very few photos of this particular version in books or on the net, given that TF158/160th SOAR were shrouded in secrecy in the early eighties. The best photo I can find of the AH-6C is on page 73 of Wayne Mutza's book "Loach". If anyone can post or link to any photos, they would be very welcome. Thanks.

LD.

(P.S. Work on the OH-6D is continuing. The fuselage halves are joined and the rocket pod attachment and rotor shaft/swashplate details are the last major items that have to be done. More photos of the build will be posted when she is finally finished.)

[Cobrahistorian]

I just shot a bunch of pics of the AH-6C at the 101st Museum. Between Ray and I, we should have you covered. I'll post some when I get settled in tonight.

Jon

[EDWMatt]

We had an AH-6C test bird at Edwards in 1984 or so. Didn't have any armament installed, so can't answer those questions, but can answer a couple.

Color: Our aircraft was regular CARC FS 34031 Aircraft Green with a flat black interior. Rotors were also flat black. New, fresh CARC can look very dark, almost black. Our ALSE guy called the bird, "the nasty black Easter egg". Don't know if any of the airframes were actually later painted flat black, like many other "Little Birds"

Our aircraft had been converted by Hughes. Don't know if they converted all of them or provided kits. The only significant change from the OH-6A that I remember was the installation of a -C20B engine and the "Black Hole Ocarina" exhaust suppression system.

I MAY have a picture in my stash. If so, it's a slide, and I don't have a satisfactory slide scanner at the moment, so no promises.

[EL REY]

That I know, the miniguns for helos are caliber 7.62mm, for both chooper are the same.

The official color is the flat black 37038, but fi you want to gift some shade to your model, mix fifty-fifty helo drab and black.

Remember that Mac Donell Douglas, bought Hughes company.

[Loach Driver]

Jon, Matt and El Rey, thanks. As always, you guys never let me down.

Jon, I look forward to the photos.

Matt, any photos you can supply would be great. Can you fill us in on what was involved in the test programme at Edwards with the AH-6C? Sounds like fascinating stuff. That bit of info on Hughes doing the AH-6C conversion is priceless!

As you can probably see, I am particularly interested in a lot of the experimental work carried out by Hughes in the late seventies and the early eighties with the H-6/500 helicopter. From 1980 till 1985 they seem to have had the following prototypes in development and flying;

1. The Hughes OH-6D AHIP prototype (N8336F).

2. The OH-6A NOTAR prototype (12917).

3. The OH-6A used on the NASA 'Higher Harmonic Control' programme (17230).

4. The 500 MD Defender II/ MMS TOW prototype (N8337F).

5. The AH-6C gunship.

6. The McDonnel Douglas MD530 MG gunship (N530MG).

Does anyone know if Hughes had a specific hangar dedicated to Research and Development for these prototypes at their plant in Culver City back in the early eighties? The H-6 production line was situated in Hangar 15, the old 'Spruce Goose' hangar, so maybe the experimental department had a corner of that hangar (a bit like the current X-Works at Bell). It would make a wicked diorama!

LD.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Loach Driver

[11bee]

I've got a Dragon AH-6J in the basement. For quite a while I've been pondering trying to backdate it to a C model. Something about the pointy fuselage and the side exhaust setup that I like. However, I just don't think I've got the scratch building skills to pull this off. Too bad there isn't a resin conversion of this, it would make for a pretty unique model.

John

[Retired GunPilot]

Hey LD, I can't give you much info on the early birds the 160th had, but I was an IP here at Rucker when they first formed the unit and they came down here to Rucker to recruit as many IPs as they could. I do remember the first birds and they were basically the Army OH-6s with the mini-gun installed and they did have the upgraded engine C20B. Hughes did do all their original custom work once the unit was formed but the first couple of years they were pretty much just ordinary OH-6s with custom trail and error accessories. When the organization did form there was a special contract company at Campbell that did all their militarization work on the newer aircraft they received from Hughes/McDonald Douglas and later Boeing. My old TSM Comanche boss went up there when he retired and ran their shop for about a year but missed Alabama too much and came home.

Charlie

[rotorwash]

LD,

Here are some of the pics of the AH-6C that I took at Ft. Campbell. Just keep in mind that this is a display bird, so I'm not sure if it is entirely accurate. For instance, the old OH-6A exhaust system has the conical plug in it, but I don't see the exhaust elements from the black hole system. The minigun system they have on her now is the old M-27 system, but as you can probably see, the minigun doesn't even have the drive motor or selenoid on it and there is no ammo chute as well. Who knows if that's the right system or not. Anyway, here's what they have. Hope it helps.

Ray

Sorry they are kinda dark.

Edited March 7, 2009 by rotorwash

[Loach Driver]

Charlie, thanks for that information. Hughes must have been a busy place to work in in the early eighties with all the experimental ships they had flying at the time, including now the AH-6C.

Ray, thanks for those photos. As you say, we shouldn't always take museum birds as being fully accurate of the original airframe. At a guess, I would say this machine was originally an ANG bird, given that it has the spotlight box under the right, front nose and might have been converted to basic AH-6C configuration for display in the museum. However, it does have what looks to be the correct mounting for the rocket pod, so those photos are very useful. Thanks.

I think the U.S. Border Patrol got a few ex-160th H-6s so probably all of the original AH-6Cs were converted back to near-original Cayuse standard. 'The most famous Loach pilot of them all' recently took delivery of a few retired MH-6Cs to his Police Aviation Unit so few, if any, of the original A/MH-6C helicopters exist in their original form, probably.

LD.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Loach Driver

[Floyd S. Werner, Jr.]

Actually the AH-6C on display was taken right off the flight line or so it was told to me by the museum curator. So I think it is fairly accurate for the time period. I have better exposed photos I think. I'll have to look.

Also if you are doing it in 1/35th scale, I know where you can get that gun system. LOL

Floyd

Photos courtesy of KC Police (I think).

After looking my photos aren't all that much better than Ray's.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Floyd S. Werner, Jr.

[Albert Moore]

Interesting aspect to me are the names painted on that 101st Little Bird. I was just reading of the exploits of Randy Jones and Robert Fladry in Michael Durant's book The Night Stalkers; Top Secret Missions of the US Army's Special Operations Aviation Regiment. Both of those guys are among the earliest members of the 160th SOAR(A) and participated in most of the units more well known missions. It is a very interesting book for fans of both Spec Ops and aviation enthusiasts.

Cheers,

Alby

[Loach Driver]

Floyd, thanks for setting me straight on the museum AH-6. The spotlight box threw me!

Thanks also for the photos of 054. The pics are better than you think. It is a mean-looking Police Loach. Should be hard to spot on night-time patrols!

LD.

[Albert Moore]

Floyd,

KC Police.... Isn't that the police department Hugh Mills flies for?

Cheers,

Alby

[Floyd S. Werner, Jr.]

Floyd,

KC Police.... Isn't that the police department Hugh Mills flies for?

Cheers,

Alby

I ain't saying yes and I ain't saying no, maybe. LOL

It is good to have friends in high places.

Floyd

[Cobrahistorian]

There's probably going to be some redundancy, since Ray and I were standing right next to one another and we share photos on a regular basis, but here's what I've got on the museum's AH-6C:

[Cobrahistorian]

This is awesome, I'm sitting out here, grilling chicken on the deck, laptop at my side, talkin helicopters.... and i'm in NY to boot! :D

Edited March 7, 2009 by Cobrahistorian

[Joseph Osborn]

I've got a Dragon AH-6J in the basement. For quite a while I've been pondering trying to backdate it to a C model. Something about the pointy fuselage and the side exhaust setup that I like. However, I just don't think I've got the scratch building skills to pull this off. Too bad there isn't a resin conversion of this, it would make for a pretty unique model.

Don't sell yourself short!!!! Skills take practice to develop, so start practicing now. The Dragon AH-6J has the T-tail, so you'd want to find the tail from the OH-6A version. The Israeli Defender version of the kit had the exhaust modification, and the AH-6C rocket mount looks like some simple pipe. You'd have an AH-6C in no time.

Anybody else notice the bird hanging in the museum doesn't have the serial, but instead has "80-TF160"? Sounds like a black-budget acquisition to me!

[11bee]

Hmm..... I may have to look into that. Didn't know that Dragon had a version out there with the split exhausts. The rest of the kit is do-able.

Even by Littlebird standards, the AH-6C's are extremely camera-shy. I've only seen a few pictures of them from "back in the day". Most are pictures like those above. Does anyone know whether these helos ever flew anything different from the rocket pod on the right and the mini-gun on the left?

Joseph - that is an interesting observation with regard to the serial #. I noticed it but just figured that it was a hack job from the museum. Maybe you are correct.....

John

[Loach Driver]

The only armament variation that I have seen is one AH-6C fitted with an M158 rocket pod on the right-hand side instead of what looks like the standard M260. Some sources list the following systems as being options for use on the AH-6C;

Stinger AAM.

TOW anti-tank missiles.

M-261 rocket pod.

Mk 19 grenade launcher.

LD.

[Loachnut]

I can't help but wonder if either one of those birds were part of the group we had in Tulsa in the early '80's.

I have some great memories of going to Ft. Chaffee AR to light some things up.

Jody

[Floyd S. Werner, Jr.]

The only armament variation that I have seen is one AH-6C fitted with an M158 rocket pod on the right-hand side instead of what looks like the standard M260. Some sources list the following systems as being options for use on the AH-6C;

Stinger AAM.

TOW anti-tank missiles.

M-261 rocket pod.

Mk 19 grenade launcher.

LD.

Some sources would be crazy. They fly at night, why a Stinger? TOW where would the site go? M-261 pod, how would it get off the ground being too heavy and way out of lateral CG. Mk19 grenade launcher, only if you want to shoot yourself down by lobbing the grenades through the rotor. You will have to show me and I'm not from Missouri. LOL

Floyd

[Avus]

Thanks for bringing up this question and above all thanks to Jon and Ray for sharing their pictures.

Now I know what to do with my 1/35 OH-6 ...

[Loach Driver]

Some sources would be crazy. They fly at night, why a Stinger? TOW where would the site go? M-261 pod, how would it get off the ground being too heavy and way out of lateral CG. Mk19 grenade launcher, only if you want to shoot yourself down by lobbing the grenades through the rotor. You will have to show me and I'm not from Missouri. LOL

Floyd

Won't get off the ground, eh? Check this Loach out, Floyd!

At the risk of getting a life-time ban from this forum, the "source" that I quoted also listed the HELLFIRE as an option. I thought that sounded a bit far-fetched so I left it out! At a guess, Hughes would have had their hands full in the early eighties integrating that system onto the Apache, nevermind trying to fit out a Loach with a Hellfire launch system and laser designator. I think the AH-6J was possibly the first to get Hellfire.

LD (ducking for cover!).

Edited March 9, 2009 by Loach Driver

[Loachnut]

Won't get off the ground, eh? Check this Loach out, Floyd!

At the risk of getting a life-time ban from this forum, the "source" that I quoted also listed the HELLFIRE as an option. I thought that sounded a bit far-fetched so I left it out! At a guess, Hughes would have had their hands full in the early eighties integrating that system onto the Apache, nevermind trying to fit out a Loach with a Hellfire launch system and laser designator. I think the AH-6J was possibly the first to get Hellfire.

LD (ducking for cover!).

Actually, that Loach did not get off the ground.

Jody

[Loach Driver]

Actually, that Loach did not get off the ground.

Jody

Jody, I think you're right. The Loach in the photo was apparently a prank pulled by some maintenance guys who did it up like that for fun. Maybe the MELB could lift that load, but not the original Loach, as good and all as it is.

LD.