B-17 Hybrid in the shop

[Kostucha]

Hello all,

I'm curious as to how the set up would have looked when they would rebuild B-17's with other sections of different bombers. Specifically B-17G-35-VE, 42-97880, DF-F, Little Miss Mischief (as found in the PYND48044 decals).

I've got a B-17G, with a lot of extras, and to show off as much interior as possible, having this particular bomber being "put back together" with the front half seperate of the rear half fuselage would do that pretty nicely.

What would it have looked like is my question. As in, how would she be rigged to join front half and rear half? What does the rear fuselage section that meets up with the front half look like (Ie., how was it attached?). What the rear half attached comeplete or would it have had parts removed, like the ball turret, the .50's, etc., etc., etc.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mark.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Kostucha

[B-17fan]

Can't remember where I found these but they show some detail of the procedure.

[Kostucha]

Awesome! That's exactly what I'm looking for, the joint at aft section bulkhead no. 6.

Do you (or anyone) know if the bulkhead shown on the radio compartments section is mirrored and present on the aft fuselage section as well? Or was there no bulkhead there?

Cheers,

Mark.

[Kostucha]

Just got an e-mail from a good friend down in Ottawa:

"Edge,

Far as I 'member, when we had the 2 pieces to paint up, the aft [tail] portion was clean and new with two diagnal braces coming from the top of the backbone down and out. The ball turret assem. complete was removed, and there were no other parts inside. I don't know if it was really this was for the replacement you wanted, this isn't war time afterall.

The foreward portion of the no.6 bulkhead was solid with dented marks indicating where the bolts would go through. As far as I could tell, you're lookin' at about 75 to 100 bolts.

Keep in mind my friend, these weren't drilled through, but then again, this is a one-of restoration. Would it have been war time replacement, they would have been drilled through I imagine. Maybe someone can help sum this one up?

"

A lot of good info in this one, but can anyone help?

[Steve N]

I've seen a couple of B-17s under restoration, and there is no bulkhead at the forward end of the aft fuselage..just a big round hole.

Here's the aft fuselage of B-17E "My Gal Sal," currently detached at the production joint (they're still working on building a hangar big enough to display her completely assembled.) In the upper left photo, you can see the structural ring with the holes for bolting the tail section to the forward fuselage. As you can see, it has the ball turret and waist gun in place. Obviously, in the wartime photos these have been removed during the transplant surgery. NOTE: the entire waist section, as well as the bukhead, are unpainted aluminum. This was pretty much standard on all wartime B-17s, regardless of manufacturer.

and here's a pic I found on the USAF Museum website, showing the detached tail section of the Memphis Belle. As you can see, she's been stripped of all interior fittings, but the structure itself is complete.

Cheers!

Steve

Edited August 28, 2010 by Steve N

[Kostucha]

Awesome! Thanks Steve!

[Kostucha]

Dealing with "Little Miss Mischief" what the devil was her tail gun setup? The old or the new?

I've been finding both. A number of profiles show the tail as being the newer style, and an equal number show it as the older style.

Which was it? Anyone know for sure?

Cheers,

Mark.

[Kostucha]

Never mind, FOUND IT! Ha-HA!

That's pretty explanitory.

[Steve N]

Boy, she was a real hodge-podge! Looks like they replaced the aft fuselage, but kept her original vertical tail, tail gun compartment, and even the rear entry door.

SN

[Kostucha]

Steve,

Ya! A real hodge-podge is right. The tail gunners door was also kept too along with the antenna mast. And though it can't be seen in that shot, her elevators are also silver, not OD, so that leaves me to believe that the horizontal stabilizers were kept from the original fuselage as well.

This one's going to be a lot of fun to build. Plan being to have her on jacks, inside the repair hanger, much like in the first two pictures. The front half of the fuselage being... errr... normal. In that all the 50 cals will be in place, etc. etc. etc. The rear half will be lined up to be brought in and mounted, with the tail gunners section, vertical stab, elevators, doors, ball turret, and the 50's on the side.

It'll be a fun diorama to make I'm sure, plus, gives a great way to show some of the interior details of the Fort.

This is definitely going to be a long term project, but a fun one for sure!

Cheers,

Mark.

[Steve N]

If she was in the shop, I doubt the hand-held .50s would be in place. I think they were normally removed for cleaning between missions..I suppose you could use a bit of "artistic lisence" though. The top turret guns are in place in the first "Frankenstien's Lab" photo, so you can probably leave the turret guns in. Of course, don't forget to leave out the bombsight..these were locked in a vault between missions.

If you really want to do some surgery, you could remove the vertical and horizontal stabs as well, along with the tail gun compartment, and have all the parts laying around being worked on. That'd really make a cool diorama!

SN

[Kostucha]

Steve, thanks for the advice with the .50's. I'll have the ball turret ready to be reinstalled, and the .50's in the chin and top turret will be in place. As for the .50's for the tail, waist, radio room, and cheeks will be removes and on a table near the side (out of the way). I'm curious to know whether the feed chutes would be removed, or left (empty) connected to the empty wooden ammo boxes inside (for the waist guns), and the same idea up in the nose. I'm sure that they would be in place for the top turret, again just unloaded.

I also want to use some of that artistic licence to have one of the engine cowls open (using a vector P&W R-1820G).

I'm just kicking myself as I sent out my only greenhouse pieces for the tail gun. But I can always order a new one. But yes, likeyou mentioned Steve, the horizontal stabs, tail gun section, and vertical stab will be off the main fuselage piece waiting to be bolted on. It'll be fun I'm sure.

Cheers,

Mark

[Kostucha]

Granted though, this idea isn't going to be taking flight until a number of other things are done first... the Mitchell, Hurricane, and a couple of Sea Kings I think I'm building for some co-workers... maybe then the Fortress. Who know's might have a different idea by then. But this one sure would be fun to build!

Cheers,

Mark.

[100th BG]

Minor detail about the guns: For the armament on bombers, the back plate (1) would be removed and the bolt, oil buffer, and barrel (2,3, & 4)were removed for cleaning while the casing remained mounted in the turret or other types of gun mounts. The exception might be the waist guns on B-17F's, but there was really no point in taking out the whole gun (especially since it weighed around 60 pounds!). Sometimes if you look close at photos, you will notice a large hole in the end of the cooling jacket or notice you can see straight through it. That is because the guts are out of it. Of course, this won't have any effect on your model, which sounds like it will be very interesting!

Edited August 29, 2010 by 100th BG

[Kostucha]

Karl,

Thank you very much. I just want to be clear... they'd leave the guns mounted... and just remove the guts... the internals, from the backplates, bolt carrier, and barrel would slip out from the inside? *Note: I'm accustomed to the Quick Change Barrel on our .50's...*

Thanks though. Cheers,

Mark.

[Kostucha]

NOW I see what you mean. You know, I've never noticed it before... mostly due to the fact that, as mentioned, I'm used to the quick change barrel, where the entire barrel comes off. So, going back through pictures, I've now begun to see just how many hollow cooling jackets are actually present!! Holy Crow!!

So, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but they way it would then work, say, for the two cheek guns, is that the .50 Cal would have the guts pulled, much as Karl mentions. The .50 call would remain completely hooked up otherwise, left in place. The ammo chutes from the ammo bins to the guns, would they remain connected?

This may sound like a pretty dumb question, but what would they then do with the ammo left over? Leave it in the chute? Or remove it all? And would the chutes be removed or left in place?

With the top turret, it would be elevated up, the guts pulled, and everything else left in place much the same too then, right?

[100th BG]

Yes, the quick change barrel on the heavy barrel version of the .50 cal is a little different from the air-cooled version. The top turret as you mentioned would have the guns angled up, the cheek guns would have the reciever left in place, and so on. The ammo chutes were quite easy to remove so I suspect they would be disconnected from the cheek guns just for ease of service. Hard to say for certain. As for the ammo itself, from what I have read, it would have been removed. Some of the guys from the 100th BG I have talked to said they took the guts out of the guns and into the tents you see by the hardstands where they were cleaned and stored.

[Kostucha]

Very cool! I'm going to be using some artistic licence I think with this one here and there but for the most part, do what I can to get it as accurate as possible too... I'm just workin on a quick sketch...

[Army_Air_Force]

Watching with interest.

[Kostucha]

Well, here's the quick sketch:

So, what's it all mean...

1. Just the vertical stab, rudder, laying flat on a wooden stand/support

2. The two horizontal stabs being propped up vertically, or also laying down, not completely sure as of yet

3. The ball turret, on a support stand, waiting to be mounted in

4. A table, containing the guts of some of the .50's, feed chutes, and the two .50's that'll go into the waist gun postitions, along with other parts, etc...

5. A second table with other various parts that'll be going back into the rear fuselage portion, like oxygen bottles, various lines, hoses, etc, the rear gunners hatch, some metal flash/trim pieces that'll be going on after the assembly is complete

6. Forward half of the B-17, on jack stands with the landing gear down, bomb bay doors are down, flaps are up, front access hatch is also open, and cockpit windows slid open as well.

7. Rear fuselage half, gutted, on a trolly, being moved closer in to the fwd portion of the -17 to get joined together. Very little inside this piece, except for framing, and a few other minor things.

8. The older style tail gunners section, ready to be installed onto the tail, also on a trolly.

9. The engine panels on the number 1 engines are removed. The engine isn't being worked on at this point, just the portions in black are exposed

10. A table containing some tools, and the removed panels from the number 1 engine

All the blue stars... where I intend people to be/maintainers to be.

There will be a number of other smaller details, as well as scafolding on the floor as well... this is just a rough idea.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Mark.

[Kostucha]

Even though it's an 'F' model shown on that line drawing, you get the idea of what I'll be doing with the G.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Steve N]

I notice in your diagram the sheet metal wing root fillets are in place..note that in the "surgery" photos the aft part of the fillets have been removed (you're probably already aware of that..just tell me to STFU if I'm getting obnoxious!)

SN

[Kostucha]

Not obnoxious at all Steve, I did notice them, but failed to remove them on the diagram.

Cheers though! I appreciate the heads up. I'd rather have someone like yourself there to ensure I don't slip up, rather than nothing being said and then realizing far too late that, yep... you forgot something...

Thanks,

Mark.

[Kostucha]

I'm trying to find out where exactly all the hard points under the fuselage and wings are located for the placement of the jackstands.

Are there any in particular, or is it just anywhere along spars and key frame areas?

Mark.

[Steve N]

There are very specific jack points on the B-17. Karl (100th BG) would have the inside skinny on that..he used to wrench on Sentimental Journey.

SN