Upcoming 1/72 Scale Shuttle Products

[niart17]

Ok guys. I'm getting close to being ready to offer some of these 3d printed parts and would like to get a little feedback. I'll start posting here about progress and any questions I may have for you guys about them instead of in my build log just to clean it up and avoid confusion.

The items I'm currently thinking of offering through Shapeways are as follows,

The SRB Bottom Skirts with Separation Motors Attached (may offer without motors and with motors separate)

The SRB Tops; (Also considering making the separation motors as a separate piece so they can be printed in a higher quality plastic by themselves since they are a natural metal colored in real life.)

The SRB to ET Attachment Rings. (These are not only more accurate by encircling the whole SRB, but they aid in making painting easier by allowing you to remove the SRB mounting and painting off the tank)

The ET Intertank Section with Thrust Panel Detail and fittings added (Will be a bit pricey but hey...saves a lot of pain if you want accurate thrust panels.

And for now finally the Ice Frost Ramps for the Repressurization lines. (I may combine these with the Intertank or some other product.

These parts are not quite ready for prime-time so I'll post updates here as I work on them. I'll also occasionally ask for advice, input, information, support...whatever here. I've done the SSME's as well but for now I would rather recommend you look at Fisher or Realspace models products instead. Mine, while they came out really nice, I think are a little too high price for the material that would make them look best. If you're really really interested in them I can maybe work on them some more and get them ready for printing. But really you should check out the other stuff out there first.

Thanks for looking and if you want more information about their progress up to this point check out my build thread here; http://s490816932.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=232748&st=300#entry2542210

Thanks,

Bill

[SBARC]

This is exciting to see these products. I'm fascinated by the concept of 3D printing.

[niart17]

Thanks Steve, I too am excited about this new tech. I realize for some parts (like cockpits for instance) the quality may not quite be ready without it costing a LOT of money or taking a bit of prep. work before painting. But for these particular parts, the slight texture (which it is very fine still) that the printed parts come with actually pretty accurately depict the real parts. And for smaller parts, the high detail material isn't too costly to rule out using. The other cool thing is parts can easily be modified or customized without much extra cost.

Speaking of cost, I guess people want to know what these things will cost. And that's one thing I need to look at and see what's a fair reasonable cost for everyone involved. If anyone has suggestions as to what they feel some of the parts might be worth, I'm open to hear it.

Thanks again. I look forward to doing some more and getting these out there.

Bill

Edited September 30, 2013 by niart17

[Hotdog]

My only input would be to have the SRB seperation motors on the nose as separate pieces, so they could be either bare metal foiled or painted a bit easier.

Side question - How feasable would it be to produce these parts at 1/144 scale for an Airfix shuttle stack? Is it just a matter of printing the same 3D file but changing a scale % setting? I know nothing about 3D printing.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Hotdog

[niart17]

My only input would be to have the SRB seperation motors on the nose as separate pieces, so they could be either bare metal foiled or painted a bit easier.

Side question - How feasable would it be to produce these parts at 1/144 scale for an Airfix shuttle stack? Is it just a matter of printing the same 3D file but changing a scale % setting? I know nothing about 3D printing.

Yes, I'm considering making the square area that the SRB motors in the cone section are mounted in as a whole separate piece. That is if it looks like it wouldn't be too hard to fit them in from inside the cone without much trouble. The main reason to do that is I'm not sure how easy it would be to get a metal like smooth surface from the existing White Flexible material that I feel the SRB's should be printed in. Then the motor section could be printed in the higher quality smoother Frosted Detail plastic. Either way can be offered as an option.

As far as 1/144 scale, I'm looking in to it. Some parts will probably be a simple matter of scaling down the model and printing them. But the only 1/144 scale kit I have is the Revell stack so I'd need some dimensions from the other kits to see how well they'd fit. Plus the wall thicknesses have to be taken into account so they don't go below the minimum allowable thickness for printing. Bottom line is either I'll have to make parts for all the different kits out there or (hopefully) one set of parts that would fit any brand.

Another thing I'm considering is making all of the stack parts, that aren't simple tubes, that can be used to make a stack for the often neglected Tamiya 1/100 Shuttle. The good thing about that is the stack itself would be stand-alone so I wouldn't have to worry about fitting any existing parts. That is assuming there is a reasonable source for the proper sized tubes for the SRBs and ET that most any modeler could find easy enough. All other parts I could offer, like the SRB nose, tails, attach rings, the ET nose, the aft dome, the intertank, line frost ramps and perhaps the shuttle "cradle" mounting struts. It may be tooexpensive though, I'd have to see what it cost to print. But it seems like a nice size compromise between the 1/72 and the 1/144 scale kits. I don't know why not many have made aftermarket parts for it. Perhaps the cost of the kit itself?

Anyway, thanks for the input.

Bill

[jetplane]

Hi Bill,

Nice works...I think in 1/144 scale, the intertank with ribbings section is a nice correction & accurizing

for the Shuttle stack.So far it seems no aftermarket maker or manufacturer ever do it until now as offer by your outstanding additions.

Please do it..!! yeah...The SRB cones & skirts too..in 1/144 scale!

Pricey or not...I believe the Serious Shuttle modeler will get his/her hands on grabbing one..... :rolleyes:/>

Cheers and keep more of the good stuff comin'..!!

George

[catfan]

if u do them in 1/72 and 1/144 scale u have 2 sets sold i need those parts badly

[Space Tiger Hobbes]

I love the parts and the idea of a full stack for the Tamiya kit is super. My experience as a buyer of 3D printed parts is that the cost rapidly becomes...problematic/prohibitive/astronomical as the size increases. I can't see a 1/72 ET Intertank for less than $75 and that's kind of optimistic.

While some of the market - gamers and novices, for instance - just think 3D is cool and they'll accept something representative, the scale modeling audience probably won't like the fidelity of cheaper materials like WSF and, again, the price goes up with WSF Polished or Frosted Detail, etc.

At this point in the technology development, it's cheaper to use 3D modeling to make your masters and then cast the parts. I'm thinking of Martin's Models and North American Engineering, both of which are popping resin detail parts for the Saturn I and Saturn V.

More trouble to do that, but you hopefully sell more. Frost ramps, sep motors, umbilicals, clamps, RCS engine interiors, where are the flight deck/middeck/egress hatch kits? and I have yet to see anyone show any interested in the air data probes that pop out when the shuttle gets low and slow enough. It's all good.

Everybody's different, but if I go down the hyper-accurate path, I want the full-meal deal. Cost if a factor to me, and I'm not exactly a tightwad. It it's too high, I'm ok with minor inaccuracies.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Space Tiger Hobbes

[spaceman]

Hello Bill,

you're making great progress on your way with the 3D printing, my compliment, I'm surprised! The details look great, and you seem to have a lot of fun in this work.

[SpitfireGuy]

I'd put some pennies away for a set of 1/144 parts for sure.

Zach

[niart17]

I love the parts and the idea of a full stack for the Tamiya kit is super. My experience as a buyer of 3D printed parts is that the cost rapidly becomes...problematic/prohibitive/astronomical as the size increases. I can't see a 1/72 ET Intertank for less than $75 and that's kind of optimistic.

While some of the market - gamers and novices, for instance - just think 3D is cool and they'll accept something representative, the scale modeling audience probably won't like the fidelity of cheaper materials like WSF and, again, the price goes up with WSF Polished or Frosted Detail, etc.

At this point in the technology development, it's cheaper to use 3D modeling to make your masters and then cast the parts. I'm thinking of Martin's Models and North American Engineering, both of which are popping resin detail parts for the Saturn I and Saturn V.

More trouble to do that, but you hopefully sell more. Frost ramps, sep motors, umbilicals, clamps, RCS engine interiors, where are the flight deck/middeck/egress hatch kits? and I have yet to see anyone show any interested in the air data probes that pop out when the shuttle gets low and slow enough. It's all good.

Everybody's different, but if I go down the hyper-accurate path, I want the full-meal deal. Cost if a factor to me, and I'm not exactly a tightwad. It it's too high, I'm ok with minor inaccuracies.

I understand your point and I've discussed this a bit in other threads. I totally get that the WSF material is not as smooth as we model builders are use to, and is not necessarily a good material for representing smooth metal parts. That is exactly the reason I decided not to offer the SSMEs, because in the only really affordable material, the fidelity you speak of is not quite there. BUT all the parts I'm suggesting to make out of the WSF material are in fact rough surfaced parts on the real shuttle stack. The intertank, the SRB skirts and noses etc...are all covered with a rough material. The slight roughness that WSF offers, even unpolished, is perfect for that finish. And for all the small detail parts that need to be smooth, they won't cost that much to print in the frosted detail plastic and can be painted and finished just as well as resin. It's still a work in progress, but I am confident there is a place for it as long as it is strategically used.

Bill

[K2Pete]

These items, Bill ... are ... um ........ OUT- FRIKKIN-STAND-ING! The details and printed result are oh so nice!

Well done!

And the only thing I can see, from a consumer's point of view, is the cost. I haven't seen too many modelers that want a super accurate Shuttle. Jetplane and crowe-t come to mind. So your market is very limited. But to even have the option of adding these lovely pieces of yours is convenient, but if adding all these potential items is going to cost more than the original kit, it will cause us to think twice.

From my own POV, I enjoy scratchbuilding the little details ( ... I've included the Air Data Probe on my Shuttle cutaway ) and have, and will, buy some 3D items for other projects. And while something like a stack in 1/100 really gets my attention, the cost would be above and beyond ... at least for the time being.

But, keep doin' whatcher doin' mate! Your work is looking GREAT!

... and it's great to see everybody's online presence again ...

Pete

[niart17]

Thanks Pete! I always value your input and advice. I agree the market is a smallish one. But without any overhead inventory or real work involved in producing them, so if they sell great, if not...no biggie.

BTW, just an initial best WAG estimate on 1/100 scale stack parts. I'm thinking it would be under $100 not including the aft shuttle attachment struts. I haven't worked the attachment parts up yet but it still may be under the $100 mark with them included possibly. If that's the case, the only thing a modeler would have to provide would be tubing for the bottom body of the ET and two tubes for the main SRB bodies plus a few strips of styrene for the SRB section seams. I haven't looked in to what size those tubes would be or if there is even a source for them but I'm sure something could be found.

Bill

[Jay Chladek]

The parts look great, but I am slightly leary of how the 3D printed resin would stand up to the stresses involved with a vertical stack over time as some of these elements aren't just decorative, but rather structural. The intertank structure might encounter a bit of stress given you are replacing a large portion of the styrene ET with a resin 3D printed part at a spot where the tops of the SRBs attach. That puts a LOT of potential twisting force up there since they are supporting a lot of the structure, especially if a modeler decides to display the stack with no support rod under the orbiter and just have everything supported by the SRBs. So the orbiter weight is going to be dragging against the SRBs on one side. In my two stacks, I ended up using a combination of steel rod and brass tube in a sleeve arangement inside the SRBs to keep the stacks oriented vertical.

Maybe I am overthinking the issues a little, but one thing I have learned from building the Monogram stacks is that you do have to think a little bit like an engineer as we are getting to a size where the sub-assemblies have some weight and heft to them and cutting out a portion of the tank to handle a replacement part could have some unanticipated issues. Some sort of cardboard sleeve will likely be needed to fit inside the part and give stability to the upper strut attachments so that the glue joints and the resin aren't having to handle the full load.

The ice frost ramps... BRILLIANT idea. I would love to have some of those myself at the very least. The SRB cone tips also look good as well.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Jay Chladek

[niart17]

Thanks Jay, I really appreciate any comments and suggestion from you on this. You are the Shuttle Master, no doubt about it.

Structural integrity is something I am concerned with and addressing. A couple of initial things I've done to beef up the support is model a thick tube through the intertank between a thickened area of the thrust panels that is designed to run a 3/32" metal rod through the tank and will slide into each of the SRB tops. There will also be a rod running between the SRB attach rings at the bottom. My first thought is that I would also epoxy metal rods or bar stock vertically under that side to side connection down to the kit area of the ET to make sure the load is transferred to kit plastic and not resting solely on the WSF material. That may be overkill though because I think it's strong enough without it. There is also some reinforcement rings modeled into the intertank itself to help keep it from flexing.

I have tried to think of another way to get an accurate thrust panel section, but other than trying to engrave the pattern (which I started and it's...let's just say not fun) I don't see any other way to get it done. Is it THAT important a feature to have correct? Perhaps not. But it's fun fixing this stuff anyway.

As for the ice frost ramps, I think they will add a nice touch and make painting and detailing the repress lines and cable tray much easier. I still need to confirm the diameter of the real repress lines so I can make sure the holes to run them through are the correct size.

Thanks again everyone for the input. It's this kind of conversation that will help me get the best results I can.

Thanks and keep the comments coming!

Bill

[shuttlemodeler]

Will you also sell the 3'D files? I would love to use them for my shuttle project. I already have a 3-d Printer

[niart17]

Will you also sell the 3'D files? I would love to use them for my shuttle project. I already have a 3-d Printer

umm..well no offense but I don't think that would be very practical at this time. If there were some way to make them single use files then that would be a possiblity but it wouldn't make much sense to offer the files if all someone has to do is turn around and print out as many as they want and sell them. Not saying you would do that, but it's just not feasible at this time. Sorry.

Bill

[Space Tiger Hobbes]

I understand your point and I've discussed this a bit in other threads. I totally get that the WSF material is not as smooth as we model builders are use to, and is not necessarily a good material for representing smooth metal parts. That is exactly the reason I decided not to offer the SSMEs, because in the only really affordable material, the fidelity you speak of is not quite there. BUT all the parts I'm suggesting to make out of the WSF material are in fact rough surfaced parts on the real shuttle stack. The intertank, the SRB skirts and noses etc...are all covered with a rough material. The slight roughness that WSF offers, even unpolished, is perfect for that finish. And for all the small detail parts that need to be smooth, they won't cost that much to print in the frosted detail plastic and can be painted and finished just as well as resin. It's still a work in progress, but I am confident there is a place for it as long as it is strategically used.

Bill

Look forward to seeing it. I think some designers think they've got a hot subject and charge accordingly. Yep, for ET parts, WSF is probably just about right. A shot of Mr Resin Primer Surfacer would actually make it more scale IMO. I didn't think the SRB skirts and noses were foamed. Guess I need to study up.

[niart17]

Look forward to seeing it. I think some designers think they've got a hot subject and charge accordingly. Yep, for ET parts, WSF is probably just about right. A shot of Mr Resin Primer Surfacer would actually make it more scale IMO. I didn't think the SRB skirts and noses were foamed. Guess I need to study up.

I don't think they are "foamed" per se, to me it looks more like some sort of insulated sheets applied maybe. Though it may be sprayed on, but there is a texture. I believe that's why the upper and lower sections of the SRB's "weather" to a yellowish off-white color.

Here is a good close up and you can see the difference in the unfinished surface around the connections and the coated surface.

The tops have a similar surface to them.

I wouldn't say this is a hot subject, just one that's a big interest to me. I certainly hope a lot of people could use these parts, but I'm not foolishly thinking I'm going to make a ton of money or anything. If I could make enough to pay for enough parts to do another stack, I'd be really happy.

Bill

[niart17]

Thanks to the input from Jay, I did a little more thinking about the structural integrity of the intertank section. So I came up with a system that I think would make a pretty strong support and is fairly easy for any modeler that is already willing to cut up the external tank. It involves a series of tubes to act as channels for metal rods. There would be one rod that sticks out each side of the tank and will support the SRB tops (more on their support later). In the center of that support is a bracket that will route two more rods down to the kit section of the tank. They run to the front and back instead of the side so it's not resting on a glued joint. All the modeler has to do is epoxy those rods onto the inner wall of the existing tanks and the force is transferred below. I've left the top of the bracket open so you can put epoxy or CA at the middle intersection to further strengthen the bond. Below are some images that show the set-up.

Here is a cutaway section of what the inner structure looks like as it comes.

The brownish area in this shot is the existing kit tank bottom section and the dark blue are the rods that the modeler would supply. (sections of a thick wire coat hanger will work for the budget minded)

There will be other support added to the other parts so in the end it should be very well supported.

Bill

Edited October 4, 2013 by niart17

[habu2]

Bill, I think you're over-thinking this. Matching all those circumferential holes up with ones drilled in the kit parts would be a nightmare. I think a sturdy internal flange ring would suffice.

I do like the internal support tube for a rod, the real intertank has a similar load beam in the same location.

[niart17]

Bill, I think you're over-thinking this. Matching all those circumferential holes up with ones drilled in the kit parts would be a nightmare. I think a sturdy internal flange ring would suffice.

I do like the internal support tube for a rod, the real intertank has a similar load beam in the same location.

LOL, yeah that would be a nightmare, but those aren't for attachment. The holes around the ring are simply lightening holes to remove unnecessary material in order to keep cost down. They aren't intended for any kind of connecting. Sorry, I don't think I explained it very well in my initial post.

I think the load beam in the middle will work pretty well. I may put a similar arrangement in the SRB tops that you can run rods all the way through the SRB's and into a stand if the builder so chooses.

Thanks,

Bill

Edited October 4, 2013 by niart17

[Space Tiger Hobbes]

You realize your options at Shapways or other printers for attach rings and struts and other load-bearing parts include stainless steel, brass, and sterling silver?

[niart17]

You realize your options at Shapways or other printers for attach rings and struts and other load-bearing parts include stainless steel, brass, and sterling silver?

Yes, but that would definately be too expensive for now. Perhaps in the future all of this stuff will get cheaper, but for now it's pretty high doing metal parts. I appreciate the suggestion though.

Bill

[Jay Chladek]

Very innovative idea actually for the intertank. It looks like it should indeed do the job nicely of transferring the load as it were.

As for the SRB foam rings, yes, they are the exact same foam as used on the ET. The foam material expands, like the spray on stuff used in duct work and that is what gives it its characteristic rounded yet bumpy look. Spray guns and the foam were kept on hand so on-site repairs of ET tank foam could be done without having to truck in specialists from Michoud. NASA started using it as on the first few shuttle missions, they had problems with salt water intrusion into the SRB field joints on the aft ones. Apparently, some engineer didn't take into account that the joints that sit lower in the water while an SRB awaits recovery experience more pressure on the outside than ones closer to the surface.

Best way I've found to represent them is just with some two part epoxy putty (Milliput works well).

Edited October 5, 2013 by Jay Chladek