Wingman Kfir: Most disappointing release of the year?

[MoFo]

I've seen worse resin, but it was just all around bad. This stuff is quite nicely cast... just made from horrendous masters.

First, some context. Kinetic and AMK both released Kfirs this year. Kinetic is more accurate in shape, but a softer detailing on the parts. AMK's has nicer parts, but accuracy isn't as good. Subsequently, Wingman Models, a co-operative venture between IsraDecals, AirDoc and Kinetic, released a "superkit" version - the basic Kinetic kit, plus a slew of decal options, masks, a tiny PE fret with mirrors and ejection pull rings, resin "detail" parts and turned brass pitots. The package promises a reasonable value: the basic Kfir kit is $35; Wingman doubles that price with an aftermarket quality decal sheet, brass barrels, resin cockpit, exhaust and details, which would probably run $50+ on its own. It also includes parts to build the Kfir C10, which is a nice bonus, as this sub-type isn't buildable from the standard Kfir kit.

Unfortunately, it doesn't deliver.

The basic plastic has been reviewed elsewhere, so I won't dwell on it here. On the plus side, the Wingman kits SHOULD include the "corrected" drop tanks (mine did, at least; they're now the right length, but may be too skinny). On the minus, most of the weapons sprues have been stripped out - no Snakeyes, no CBUs, and no Python IIIs. Grrr.

The decals are very nice. Cartograf printed. Not much else to say. Look at the pics available elsewhere.

The brass pitots are excellent. Every model should have its pitot replaced with a turned brass part. Sharp detail, nice and strong... the only complaint came when I somehow managed to jam it several mm deep into my thumb.

Masks? They're Kabuki-tape style. If that floats your boat, great. I dunno... it's a mask set, what can I say?

But the resin? I don't exactly want to say it's garbage, but it's teetering dangerously close. The masters have clearly been 3D printed (more later). This in itself isn't a problem as many high quality resin comes from 3D printed masters (Eduard, AiRes and Barracuda, for instance). Unfortunately, the printer they used just wasn't well suited to the super-fine details required by scale modellers. They also didn't do a great job cleaning up the prints. All this means that the masters - and thus the resin parts - have alarmingly soft, "fuzzy" detail, with visible print lines that make the parts just generally unusable.

The pics:

Everything you get in the bag. It's an impressive quantity of resin, and definitely feels like you get your money's worth when you lift off the lid. Less so on closer examination, though. Note that a few parts have had their casting blocks removed (nose cone, exhaust, IFR probe)

Resin nose wheel vs. kit part. The resin part does have the tread pattern on the edges, but the hub detail isn't as crisp as the plastic originals. Also, in this day and age the sidewalls should have some detail added.

Another view of the nose wheel, highlighting the visible striations (this is an artifact from printing), which give a wavy, lumpy surface. This will have to be sanded smooth, and SHOULD have been done on the master.

The main wheels are worse. The bolt detail on the top of the wheel (right side in pic) is appallingly soft, essentially melting into the rim of the hub. It almost looks like someone has dipped a completed, styrene wheel into liquid glue. Note that the kit part is much better detailed. This is a cardinal sin for an aftermarket part - it CAN NOT be less good than the plastic part it's supposed to replace.

Brake detail is better on the resin parts, by a noticeable margin, which is nice. It's still not mind blowing, but it is better. At the same time, this is arguably the worst detailed part of the Kinetic kit - the kit brakes are alarmingly soft and blobby.

Replacement belly fairing tail piece. I've used side lighting to highlight the wavy, wobbly surface of the part. You can also see how soft the detailing is on the antennae along the centreline.

Another view of the fairing, this time highlighting the added chaff buckets. These should have had shallow recesses; instead, Wingman has tried to do deep recesses, which haven't cast properly.

Comparison of the resin C2 instrument panel, kit C2 panel, and resin C7 panel.

None of the parts are particularly astounding, but IMO the plastic panel is probably the sharpest of the lot. Note the horizontal print lines on the resin panel.

And the best reason to buy the Wingman kit - the C10 instrument panel. It actually seems to be the best of the resin panels, though it's still not as sharp as a Hasegawa or Tamiya kit part, let alone Black Box or the like.

[MoFo]

Nose wheel well. Again, note the lines on all the flat surfaces, from being 3D printed. It appears that the resin nose wheel well is essentially just the basic kit parts pre-assembled. I can't see any added detail, and...

...you will note that there is ZERO undercutting on any of the supposedly round detail - pipes, bottles, wires... it's all slab-sided, just like an injected plastic piece. Again, one of the biggest reasons for using resin is to cast undercuts!!! On the other hand, this shows how linked Wingman and Kinetic are - they're working from the same CAD files.

Cockpit tub. It was around this point that I started to suspect that the kit was actually some sort of elaborate joke. I mean, surely they can't be serious. No, really... look at that port side control panel and tell me they're serious with this crap. Again, it looks like the part was liberally coated with glue - I'm honestly not sure if it's just a (very) bad print, or (more likely) if they failed to clean up the support material.

The sides of the tub do have some decent detail (again, not really crisp, but an improvement over the kit), which actually makes it seem worse; I will likely hack off the resin control panels and graft in the sharper plastic parts. Seriously, how utterly insane is it that anyone should have to graft (soft) plastic parts into a resin cockpit in order to improve the detail?!?

Resin seats. The yellow resin is for the MB.10 and is decent enough. It has a different look and feel to the rest of the resin (colour aside), and I suspect it is actually from an older, hand-made master. Grey is for the MB.6, per the kit part.

Almost exactly like the kit part, as it turns out. Much like the nose wheel well, it appears to be developed from the same CAD file; Wingman have added some extra detail (which, again, is soft), but the sides are identical to the kit plastic.

The Mk.6's seat pad shows topographic-style print lines, in case anyone wondered how it was made. Interestingly, the seat belts also seem to have print lines (couldn't really capture those in pics, though) - I would have thought they'd be done by hand.

[MoFo]

Engines. These are generally an improvement on the kit parts - better interior detail, a few subtle exterior details added. It's the kind of geometry that's just better suited to resin than to plastic.

Unfortunately, the castings let things down. I suspect this is a casting issue, rather than a master issue - the little cylinders that form part of the hinge down at the base of the exhaust are far less defined on the resin parts than the plastic ones. It feels more like a worn out RTV mold to me, though, so other examples may be better.

Outside. Plastic part on left (note sink mark around circumference, though this will be hidden on the built model). There's an odd band on the resin part, about 1/4 of the way down; I'm honestly not sure if it's meant to be some sort of detail, or if it's another print artifact. It's a sort of (slightly) recessed band on the inner feathers. Strange. Yet again, the feathers on the resin part aren't terribly sharp - they sort of blend together, so masking will be tricky. It would be a good idea to scribe the edges between the petals. Also, they seem to fade in and out - the outer petals clearly stand more proud on one side of the exhaust than the other, where they almost completely blend into the inner petals. It can be hidden under the tail fairing, but still... not good.

Finally, the C10 nose. Again, this is about the only reason I would recommend the Wingman kit; they give you a resin nose, instrument panel and seat (and brass pitot) to model the newer Kfir C10. They don't include the newer, one-piece windscreen though, instead instructing you to file the frames off the Kinetic part. This will (at best) probably lead to some optical distortions, assuming the kit part is thick enough to re-shape in the first place. At worst, it may still be the wrong shape, and/or break. A vac replacement would have been nice. A resin buck to make your own replacement would even have been okay. But combined with all the other problems? Yeah... no.

Anyway, the antenna base (middle of pic) again gives a good view of the softness of detail. This, and the panel lines, match the kit parts pretty well; it should all be re-scribed to sharpen it up, but if you don't, at least the resin nose's panel lines will match the style on the rest of the kit. Also worth noting: the cast-in strakes on the side were heavily warped on my kit. They'll need to be removed and replaced with strip stock (would have been nice if these were included on the kit's small PE fret)

Finally, another shot of the nose, showing the offset static vane down the radome, and a raised panel.

If Wingman, or Kinetic, or anyone therewith are reading this, I have only one word to say in conclusion: Envisiontec. Seriously, look in to them; there are a number of print bureaus around the world running their equipment. You will thank me later.

[phantomdriver]

Very glad I didn't shell out £60 for one at Telford............ :woot.gif:/>

Edited December 27, 2013 by phantomdriver

[Berkut]

Kinetic and AMK both released Kfirs this year. Kinetic is more accurate in shape, but a softer detailing on the parts. AMK's has nicer parts, but accuracy isn't as good.

Where is the Kinetic one more accurate than AMK? I remember that the cockpits were fairly different in size (no clue which one was most correct), but externally kits seemed to match almost perfectly. Then there is the windscreen fit issue with AMK. But i don't remember direct accuracy problems. Just genuinely interested.

[onosendai]

As a resin producer made ​​in 3d and printed with rapid prototyping services i can confirm everything you've written, essentially a matter of budget.

[MoFo]

Kinetic has an area ruled fuselage (right). AMK doesn't (wrong). Which is the main reason I went Kinetic rather than AMK. *Kinda* regretting it.

And I wouldn't say the resin is poorly cast. Far from it, it's actually quite nice casting - not a lot of bubbles, no flash or excess, no visible tearout or rubber damage. The problem is entirely with the masters, which are sub-par. And again, these are really clearly 3D printed parts, using the same CAD models as Kinetic (they're not resin copies of the Kinetic parts, they're physical prints from the Kinetic CAD), which have been tweaked with additional details.

Unfortunately, if the Alpha Jet is the same, that means it'll be a good while before I consider any of their other releases. It's a pity, as, if they put more thought into CAD layout and print orientation and invested in higher res print technologies, the parts would be quite good. Kinetic's detail isn't anything to write home about, so if they just had "resin quality" sharpness, with exactly the parts they included, I'd be happy.

[dehowie]

Glad i didnt blow the cash on these as well.

To top it off the Sth American version doesnt come with the corrected windscreen for the 10 with the removal of the panels.

If it was on a budget fine but how about a budget price not a top shelf one...

[Cyrus Tan]

I seen this kit at Telford too, but I wasn't impressed with the cast quality of the resin so I passed it up. At least not at the price they were selling for. I'm glad you posted pics for everyone to see Mofo. I agree... the master patterns are probably not very good. Judging from the pics. Btw, I have a few Isradecal sets and they aren't much better either.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Cyrus Tan

[randypandy831]

my god, that cockpit tub looks like total crap.

[Berkut]

And i don't know, think MiG-25 from KH is most disappointing release of this year. Wingman wants slightly higher price, but hey, atleast the kit itself is accurate. :)

[Ventris]

I seriously dont understand how you still can expect quality when Kinetic is involved.

You should have known this would be a waste of money.

[phantomdriver]

It's not all Kinetic's fault

Isracast have sullied their rep by producing poor resin..

[jenshb]

I have three of these Kinetic Kfirs, and while they have their faults, the overall accuracy, windshield assembly and intake trunking made it for me. Sure, the panel lines and details aren't as sharp as we'd like, but the alternative would be a kit with wrong shapes, but nice detail - that doesn't work for me. The reason I don't want to tar Kinetic with the same brush as Trumpeter and KittyHawk is that their kits are basically accurate in outline and without stupid, pointless gadgets and are reasonably priced - Trumpeter and KittyHawk IMO fail on all three criteria, and all KittyHawk seem to deliver are disappointments. I do have the Wingman South American Kfir kit, and can agree with everything MoFo has said. Given the standards, this really is overcharging, and the lack of a correct frameless windshield really is disappointing. This is the only way to get the C10 without doing a fair bit of scratchbuilding, but if Wingman don't get their act together, they won't be around for long.

Jens

Edited December 28, 2013 by jenshb

[dehowie]

Kinetic is one thing Wingman is another..

Wingman just looks sloppy grab for cash with poor quality masters for the resin and the lack of effort supplying an accurate front canopy for over half the schemes in the Sth American boxing.

I dont mind Kinetic like i dont mind Kittyhawk.

Or Trumpeter for most of there kits the A-6 being just awesome..

What i dont like is getting charged for poor quality parts and those resin pieces are not good enough especially from where they have come given Isradecals hi quality past.

[FCM]

I seriously dont understand how you still can expect quality when Kinetic is involved.

You should have known this would be a waste of money.

The problem that is pointed here is not Kinetic parts...

[Ventris]

The problem that is pointed here is not Kinetic parts...

Well, if Kinetic gives access to their kits so a company can sell low quality aftermarket stuff I see a problem. And lets face it, Kinetic kits are of average quality at best.

[Laurent]

Well, if Kinetic gives access to their kits so a company can sell low quality aftermarket stuff I see a problem.

So if the Revell's 1/48 AD-5 isn't a great kit, it's Matchbox's fault. This way of thinking is a little weird to me.

And lets face it, Kinetic kits are of average quality at best.

Not "uber kits" indeed but you may find the following post interesting: http://www.arcforums...dpost&p=2569874

Edited December 28, 2013 by Laurent

[Ventris]

So if the Revell's 1/48 AD-5 isn't a great kit, it's Matchbox's fault. This way of thinking is a little weird to me.

Except there are years between the Matchbox release and Revell re-release.

So its clear it will fail every comparison to todays quality and detail standard.

you may find the following post interesting

I know the Hasegawa F/A-18 has issues which could be corrected by Kinetic (intakes) but I would be surprised if Kinetic would even come close to the Hasegawa detail and casting quality.

[Laurent]

I would be surprised if Kinetic would even come close to the Hasegawa detail and casting quality.

Lets wait for the Fouga Magister and the SHar FA2 to see if things improve.

[sharkmouth]

And i don't know, think MiG-25 from KH is most disappointing release of this year.

I wouldn't agree simply because the Wingman kit is supposed to be a 'superkit.' So far, the issues with the KH kit are not so difficult to overcome once aware of them. With this kit, the resin parts, for which the premium is partly paid for in a higher price, are not a step above the kit items when comparable parts are in the kit.

Kinetic is one thing Wingman is another....

I dont mind Kinetic like i dont mind Kittyhawk....

What i dont like is getting charged for poor quality parts and those resin pieces are not good enough especially from where they have come given Isradecals hi quality past.

Agreed, comparing Kitty Hawk's MiG-25 effort to Kinetic's Kfir effort, I would state that the Kinetic Kfir is ahead simply because of the time saved with producing a specific variant.

Wingman's parts may be used with a lot of work (isn't the idea of aftermarket to save us from some of this work? Never mind, I shudder each time I worked on some of Aires sets). However, leaving off the windscreen instead of offering a vacuum-formed item, clear resin item, or even a resin blank so the modeler makes his/her own is something I would not accept from an aftermarket company.

Now I know to avoid this kit. Thanks MoFo.

Regards,

[MIG Mikkel]

eeeeeeeeeeep

Well I thought of buying one, for a Cheetah conversion. Honestly I think some of those parts looks okay, not going with the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" but with a bit of work it will turn out fine!

For me the Wingman Kfir is the cheapest Kfir in 1/48 I can get for now, with the C10 nose part!

[Raymond Chung]

Except there are years between the Matchbox release and Revell re-release.

So its clear it will fail every comparison to todays quality and detail standard. :doh:/>/>/>

I know the Hasegawa F/A-18 has issues which could be corrected by Kinetic (intakes) but I would be surprised if Kinetic would even come close to the Hasegawa detail and casting quality.

Dear Ventris,

Sorry that our products fail you in the past and of course you are not happy with it. Running the company for few years, I would say this output quality of the kit is 90% nothing to do with the engineering ability. I can tell you Hasegawa also making tooling in China as well as in Korea. The real challenge is mainly on the financial side.

Someone may want to ask "It would be good if Tamiya make that and Hasegawa made this". Why everyone ask that ? Because you like their quality and the quality come with price. But "why" they do not make it ? Major part of the reason is the return on investment. The amount of works+tooling cost that the company will need to invest and "how long" we can get the return.

Why we do some subject that some other company not doing ? IMHO, the total no. of copies which the market can take is not enough for the return on investment. That is why I guess why big-T does not do the F-16I as they think F-16C should have the largest and constant market demand. For "lesser" demand subject, it leaves the room for smaller makers like us to fill. However, as if the big-T, we don't have the market or the cash to justify for grade A,B tooling on it.

TAMIYA may have a deep pocket to wait for years on the return on the tooling, some other may not want or cannot (we are one of them).

Therefore, let me explain some little note from a small manufacturer point of view and you can have some more prospect on "how" the model maker works:

1. Tooling Quality

It mainly depends on the tooling equipment, craftsmanship, time and material in the EDM process. We make that simple - let put grade A,B,C,D,E level tooling. Tamiya would be at grade A, Hasegawa may be on B, Trumpeter may be on C or D. According to your description, we may be at grade D or C (for certain item/area).

The selection of the tooling quality may decide from the owner that run the company where "he" wants his brand position. For example, GWH is now position at B+ with their Mig-29 and maybe we are at C- for KFIR and E for our E-2C (because we don't have experience that time).

For modeling market, sometimes the business is not a straight line. It does not mean you invest A,B+ tooling cost, you will have a good result. IMHO, the subject, time of release will determine the success of the project. We are using the same grade D/E tooling on E-2C and grade C-,D tooling for F-16, the E-2C result is 100 times better than F-16. Well in E-2C case, the subject and timing is the critical factor.

GWH Mig-29 is B+ tooling with subject and timing factor, so they made their home run. Let see how their F-15 perform.

For KFIR, we use grade C-,D+ level tooling as the investment return on the no. of copies sold would not be comparable to Mig-29 or F/A-18. That is why we use C- tooling on the fuselage. For coming FOUGA, we use the grade C+ tooling and this time we focus on the small part and runner as well as fitting of it.

For F/A-18 series, since we already have a good product from Hasegawa, the challenge is even more. We need to deliver grade B+ tooling while we need to maintain the price. I heard someone complain the price from GWH F-15 ($75+shipping). Therefore, I think we will also be complained if we put the price $75 for a 1/48 F/A-18... However, this is our job to deliver a grade B+ F/A-18 tooling and sell it for ??? let say $39 ? With cartograph decal, color booklet .... the bottom line - return on investment.

We cannot do such kind of project during first few years, but we think we need to do it on F/A-18 series as this would be a icon NAVY fighter and it would sell for long time as if as other "F" fighter. However, not all subject has the "potential" number that we can invest the amount.

The HARRIER FA2 and other "less than huge demand" subject will using grade C+ tooling to maintain the cost as well as price. For retail price issue, I will explain in below paragraph.

2. The research and study

This is big parts of changes since 2011 within Kinetic, with the leave of the original founder (where he in charge of every research design), we have to find a new "designer" to take over the job. The process is not smooth, but at the end, we "discover" the "workflow" instead of a "designer" to achieve an accurate model. It also proof that running "few talent on the model kit" is not enough nowadays as the communication is so easy, the consumer can "identify" thousand of spots within few second where it takes weeks/month for internal staff to identify the problem. Therefore, why I mention it is "workflow" - a team of array of different expertise work together to spot the design. Therefore, starting from our T-45, F-5A, KFIR, Mirage 2000C, Alpha Jet, we don't experience a "fatal" error on the shape, dimension where the consumer can spot within 5 mins after checking out the kit.

Some other news maker is now use the similar approach on the research and design resources, some still working in the old ways of internal research. Well, this is human operation, some make mistake, sometimes not. But at least, we avoid some fatal failure at our best.

3. The retail price

This has been a long argument of "you should deliver A+ quality for price like this". I can tell all of you. 50%-60% of the price you pay does not goes to the manufacturer. They go to transport, warehousing, retailing. The internet has put a pressure on the traditional distribution model to "compress" the cost, however, it stills present a great amount of the money that the consumer pay.

4. The Sales and Distribution

IMHO, this is "critical" factors for nowadays kit maker. W/o the good sales and distribution, the maker cannot survive no matter how good is the kit designed as well as how good is the tooling grade. We can see it easily from AM's B-25, P-51. They are grade B+ tooling, A+ design, all good input from group modeler "made by modeler". I don't know the story behind AM, but it seems the business plan is not adequate for such investment. However, it is good to see their tooling is in the hands of Academy/MRC and sometimes Italeri rebox their item.

I hope the above note can let consumer like you understand more and help you to decide to make your purchase decision.

[MIG Mikkel]

I'd like to like the above post :D

[sharkmouth]

Thanks Raymond,

Such input is usually not forthcoming in our conversations.

Regards,