F-4E Intake trunk color?

[seawinder]

The Hasegawa instructions call for some sort of gray, but I'm thinking white? Also, does this interior color, whatever it is, start directly aft of the splitter plate?

Thanks,

Pip

[Check Six]

I would say a semi-gloss/satin white intake color.

I've seen intakes where the fuselage color goes in 2' or 3' before the white and also only about 6" in as well.

[Check Six]

[mrvark]

I fyou're doing a jet from the Vietnam War, go with the white starting farther forward. The exterior color extending further aft started later, but I'm not sure exactly when.

Nice pics! :)

[Chris L]

I have never had an F-4 with perfectly clean . It always looked a tinge off . I suspect they were probably painted the same color as the underside which is called TAC. light gray . ( it's an off white )

All the F-4's I'm familiar with had a short color entry as above.

Cheers, Christian

[seawinder]

I fyou're doing a jet from the Vietnam War, go with the white starting farther forward. The exterior color extending further aft started later, but I'm not sure exactly when.

Nice pics! :)/>

Thanks all for the replies and great pics. I'm doing either a Ramstein bird from the late 70s or a Seymour-Johnson bird from the mid-80s. I'll be asking about typical load-outs when I get to that point.

Pip

[Jennings]

Really no such thing as "typical load outs" in the 1980s - we weren't at war (anyone remember that?). Anything they carried would have been practice weapons unless they were going to the live fire range... I can't recall if Ramstein was an air defense unit or a mud moving unit. The air defense guys in Europe sat Zulu alert with live air-to-air weapons of course. In the 1970s probably AIM-7E and AIM-9P.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Jennings

[Check Six]

Really no such thing as "typical load outs" in the 1980s - we weren't at war (anyone remember that?). Anything they carried would have been practice weapons unless they were going to the live fire range... I can't recall if Ramstein was an air defense unit or a mud moving unit. The air defense guys in Europe sat Zulu alert with live air-to-air weapons of course. In the 1970s probably AIM-7E and AIM-9P.

Your comment:

So yet so .

[chuck540z3]

A few years ago I made a Ramstein F-4E, circa 1980. I was wondering the same thing and Scott Wilson, who used to work on Phantoms at that air base, provided some detailed info on just what you are looking for here in my build thread on Post #43:

F-4E Build

Even if you're not building the Tamiya kit, Scott's pics are priceless.

[seawinder]

Really no such thing as "typical load outs" in the 1980s - we weren't at war (anyone remember that?). Anything they carried would have been practice weapons unless they were going to the live fire range... I can't recall if Ramstein was an air defense unit or a mud moving unit. The air defense guys in Europe sat Zulu alert with live air-to-air weapons of course. In the 1970s probably AIM-7E and AIM-9P.

I've found at least one in-air photo of a Ramstein F-4E during the 80s with live Sidewinders and Sparrows. The Seymour Johnson possibility (Afterburner sheet) has a couple of kill marks and is labeled "Drone Killer," so I'm thinking it may have been seen at least sometimes with the same ordnance?

Pip

[Scott R Wilson]

Intakes at Ramstein in the 1980s were painted with the exterior color extending into the duct 36 inches, I'd presume Seymour-Johnson birds were the same. The duct the rest of the way back was a semi-gloss white, sometimes weathered.

Scott Wilson

Edited March 11, 2014 by Scott R Wilson

[Scott R Wilson]

There were two squadrons at Ramstein, the 526 TFS 'Black Knights' which flew air-to-air only, and the 512 TFS ' Dragons', with a air-to-ground tasking. The 526 TFS had a Zulu Alert commitment, with two alert aircraft plus at least one and rarely two spares loaded with two 370 gallon wing tanks, four AIM-7E-2 Sparrows and four AIM-9P-3 Sidewinders during the time I was a comm-nav avionics speciallist in the 526 AMU, 1983 to 1986. The 512 TFS had a Victor alert commitment with aircraft loaded with nukes. Victor at Ramstein went away around 1984. I never got to see the Victor jets but they had B43, B57 and B61 training shapes in the load training hangar across from the 526 AMU maintenance hangar. I don't know how many jets sat Victor nor what stations were loaded though they practiced at Zaragoza with BDU-38s, which were inert B61s, on the centerline station.

Day to day training sorties were flown with one CAP-9 training Sidewinder, and often an ALQ-131 ECM pod in the left forward missile well. 370s were carried on the wings until around 1985, when we got the High Performance Centerlines (F-15 style tanks). Zulu jets still carried 370s. The 512th flew PAVE SPIKE pods on their jets that were Spike capable ( not all their jets were). They seemed only to carry practice bombs in SUU-21 pods at Zaragoza Air Base, Spain. I never saw them fly with any practice bombs from Ramstein though they may have.

Scott Wilson

Edited March 11, 2014 by Scott R Wilson

[seawinder]

Wow, Scott, that's incredibly helpful -- many thanks. One of the photos I found at airliners.net shows two planes in flight, one from 526 TFS, the other from 512 TFS. I can tell because of the unit emblems on the intakes and the color of the checkered fin tops. Both planes are loaded with Sparrows and Sidewinders.

If I do a Ramstein bird, I'm going to have to design and print the unit emblem because neither one is available commercially AFAIK. I was leaning toward the 512th because it's a slightly simpler design, plus the Hasegawa decals have the yellow checkered fin stripe; but I may have to rethink that based on your information.

Cheers,

Pip

Does anybody know if Seymour Johnson birds would ever have carried live A-T-A ordnance during the 80s?

[Scott R Wilson]

I've found at least one in-air photo of a Ramstein F-4E during the 80s with live Sidewinders and Sparrows. The Seymour Johnson possibility (Afterburner sheet) has a couple of kill marks and is labeled "Drone Killer," so I'm thinking it may have been seen at least sometimes with the same ordnance?

Pip

I'd bet not. For drone shoots at WSEP (Weapons Standardization and Evaluation Program) at Tyndall AFB they only uploaded a couple of live rounds of whatever they planned to shoot, never a full load of both types of missiles. I don't know what the 4th TFW's tasking was during Crested Cap deployments to Germany but I'm pretty sure they never sat Zulu Alert. More likely they flew training sorties with no ordnance uploaded, or if they were going to the bombing range they'd fly with BDU-33 practice bombs in SUU-21 pods.

Everyone seems to want to put full bomb loads or missile loads on their models, but that was extremely rare to see for Stateside units, and full bomb loads overseas, outside the Vietnam war, were likewise very, very rare.

Scott Wilson

[Scott R Wilson]

Wow, Scott, that's incredibly helpful -- many thanks. One of the photos I found at airliners.net shows two planes in flight, one from 526 TFS, the other from 512 TFS. I can tell because of the unit emblems on the intakes and the color of the checkered fin tops. Both planes are loaded with Sparrows and Sidewinders.

If I do a Ramstein bird, I'm going to have to design and print the unit emblem because neither one is available commercially AFAIK. I was leaning toward the 512th because it's a slightly simpler design, plus the Hasegawa decals have the yellow checkered fin stripe; but I may have to rethink that based on your information.

Cheers,

Pip

Does anybody know if Seymour Johnson birds would ever have carried live A-T-A ordnance during the 80s?

The photos you saw of 68-0526 of the 526 TFS and 68-0512 of the 512 TFS both loaded with missiles were taken as Phantom operations were winding down during the 86TFW conversion to the F-16C and D. Obviously those photos were taken during an arranged photo mission, but what I'd forgotten is that in late 1985 the remaining F-4Es at Ramstein were all combined under the 526 TFS, while the 512th was first to start flying Vipers. None of the 512th Phantoms were repainted so for a few month at least until the ANG F-4Ds took over QRA we had jets in 512th markings assigned to the 526 TFS sitting Zulu/ QRA.

AirDoc did nice sets of decals of USAFE Phantoms including Ramstein in 1/72, 1/48 and 1/32 scales. They're out of production but you may be able to find them.

[tobiK]

If I do a Ramstein bird, I'm going to have to design and print the unit emblem because neither one is available commercially AFAIK. I was leaning toward the 512th because it's a slightly simpler design, plus the Hasegawa decals have the yellow checkered fin stripe; but I may have to rethink that based on your information.

Cheers,

Pip

Ah, don't be desperate! Airdoc made a decal sheet "USAFE Phantoms in Germany, Early F-4C/D/E/Gs and RF-4 Cs markings", containing F-4 E from Ramstein both from the 512th and the 526th. Timeframe 70-80, in SEA camo.

For the later timeframe in the 80ies there s the other decal sheet "USAFE Phantoms in Germany, Late..."

Ooops, Scott had the same idea same time...yes, the decals are OOP, but try to find ehm in evilbay, or start a search post in the forums! AFAIK Hasegawa had a Ramstein option in one of their 1/48 F-4E kits...let me see...P 3 F-4E Hasegawa 1/48 (both decal versions for 512 and 526, also 2 versions for Clark based F-4Es).

Edited March 11, 2014 by tobiK

[seawinder]

Ah, don't be desperate! Airdoc made a decal sheet "USAFE Phantoms in Germany, Early F-4C/D/E/Gs and RF-4 Cs markings", containing F-4 E from Ramstein both from the 512th and the 526th. Timeframe 70-80, in SEA camo.

For the later timeframe in the 80ies there s the other decal sheet "USAFE Phantoms in Germany, Late..."

Ooops, Scott had the same idea same time...yes, the decals are OOP, but try to find ehm in evilbay, or start a search post in the forums! AFAIK Hasegawa had a Ramstein option in one of their 1/48 F-4E kits...let me see...P 3 F-4E Hasegawa 1/48 (both decal versions for 512 and 526, also 2 versions for Clark based F-4Es).

Yes, Hasegawa P3 is the kit I'm building. However, it doesn't provide the proper 512 unit emblem for a mid-80s bird, which is what I'm after. Apparently the AirDoc 48-04 sheet does, but they seem to be scarce as hen's teeth. I don't suppose anybody posting to this forum has a copy and would be will to part with either the 512 emblems or the 526 emblems and red checkered fin stripe? I'm certainly open to a monetary deal within reason.

Cheers,

Pip

[Finn]

Here are some SJ F-4Es with loads:

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1985/DF-ST-85-13427.jpeg

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1985/DF-ST-85-13429.jpeg

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1991/DF-ST-91-04364.jpeg

they are mostly during exercises but i'm sure during alerts the a/c were fully loaded.

edit: Ramstein F-4E and one with an ANG F-4D photo op:

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1983/DF-ST-83-09093.jpeg

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1988/DF-ST-88-00017.jpeg

Jari

Edited March 11, 2014 by Finn

[Scott R Wilson]

Here are some SJ F-4Es with loads:

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1985/DF-ST-85-13427.jpeg

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1985/DF-ST-85-13429.jpeg

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1991/DF-ST-91-04364.jpeg

they are mostly during exercises but i'm sure during alerts the a/c were fully loaded.

edit: Ramstein F-4E and one with an ANG F-4D photo op:

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1983/DF-ST-83-09093.jpeg

http://media.nara.gov/stillpix/330-cfd/1988/DF-ST-88-00017.jpeg

Jari

I wish the F-4E/ F-4D photo had been taken on a day with better lighting. Interesting that the F-4E has AIM-7Fs uploaded. I don't recall how long we had those during my time there. All the TAB-Vs had a full load of missiles stored in each shelter, I only remember seeing AIM-7E-2s in them. I do have one photo I took of a QRA scramble with 68-0408 carrying F models

[seawinder]

Jari, thanks for the photo links. The in-flight shot of the Ramstein bird will be very helpful for missile markings.

Since my last post, I've done the artwork for the 512th in my drawing program. I think it's going to work well.

[Scott R Wilson]

Jari, thanks for the photo links. The in-flight shot of the Ramstein bird will be very helpful for missile markings.

Since my last post, I've done the artwork for the 512th in my drawing program. I think it's going to work well.

Look like this?

I wondered why you thought the 512th patch was simpler than the 526's, I always thought the opposite. Here's the 526 TFS patch. Oh yeah, that's me sitting on the intake looking nervous just before my incentive flight in 68-0531:

[Scott R Wilson]

Here's a couple more of my photos of the 512th and 526 TFS patches:

And the 86 TFW patch:

A few of our jets never got the bright colored patches, but instead had the subdued wing patch on both sides:

Edited March 11, 2014 by Scott R Wilson

[SCOUT712]

Oh yeah, that's me sitting on the intake looking nervous just before my incentive flight in 68-0531:

I don't see any kind of nerviosity.

So you flew the same jet Ritchie was flying for the 50 years of USAF celebration at Nellis? Nice :thumbsup:/>

Regards

Scout

[Scott R Wilson]

I don't see any kind of nerviosity.

So you flew the same jet Ritchie was flying for the 50 years of USAF celebration at Nellis? Nice :thumbsup:/>/>

Regards

Scout

Yep, same exact airplane. She's still on Celebrity Row at Davis-Monthan last I heard. Here's 68-0531 as it looked when I got to work on it and fly in it:

[seawinder]

Absolutely wonderful photos, Scott. Thanks so much for posting them.

Here's what I've come up with on my computer for the 512th emblem:

I worked from a picture I found online of a patch. Now that I've seen your pics, I'll take the "TH" out as well as the black vapor trails. The dragon's eyes need to be changed as well, and the left flame. All easy to do, and I think it'll look the part reduced to size. One thing I didn't know until I saw your photos is the placement of the wing, rather than the squadron, emblem on the starboard side. Hasegawa's got that on the P3 sheet.

Cheers,

Pip

Edited March 11, 2014 by seawinder